Curse

Myria · Sep 28, 2006, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Rarely has a thread made me so very, very thankful for Alesia and her friends.

Zexion · Sep 28, 2006, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by sinican

the problem repeatedly present in this thread is that most of you monks still act and feel like your higher and mightier than all other players...

comments about not healing someone because they are doing this or doing that etc etc...

its not your responsibility to play everyone elses roll do your own damn job and heal let people play their profs the way they set them up...

Yes, we should take care about doing our own job. But what if our team mates does nothing constructive, but instead destructive? For example, a warrior aggroing all the groups in sight, instead of one at a time.

Let's flip it 180.

I, as a monk, run up to you, as a warrior, and use Heal Area to heal you.
Yes, I am doing my job, to heal you. But I am doing it in a way destructive to the function of a party, by healing the monsters next to me as well.
What would you do as a warrior? Shrug it off, and keep attacking? Or say "Look, mister monk guy. Stop healing the monsters for the damage I deal to them, or I will stop dealing damage."

Same situation for us. Our job is to keep your health up. If you do stupid things that works against our job of healing (taking much more damage than neccesary, by things such as using Frenzy while under aggro, or over aggroing), by having the heal we have just healed being taken away again, can you expect us to just shrug it off?

With my example from before:
If we do stupid things that works against your job of dealing damage (running up to the warrior and his aggro to use Heal Area, removing bleeding from another warrior instead of blind from your warrior), by having the damage you have just dealt being taken away again, can I expect you to just shrug it off?

Imagine if you were an employee at a bakery. Every time you would bake something, your boss would just throw it out the wastebin. By doing this, the shop will not earn money, and thus you will not get paid (=by the warrior being retarded, you will not be rewarded by completing the mission/quest). Am I supposed to accept that, or should I strike/quit?

_Zexion

Rera · Sep 28, 2006, 11:51 PM // 23:51

@those of you pissed off about 'high and mighty' monks telling people what to do:

The interesting fact here is that all good players (and even most bad ones) will tell their team what to do, and will instruct or yell at people who deviate from what they consider to be acceptable behavior. This is independant of what class they play.

The reason this thread raised so much ire is because monks are in the unique position to actually *enforce* their demands, because they are the ones that primarily determine who lives and dies. Nobody gets pissed off when a ranger starts telling people what to do, because the ranger doesn't directly affect anyone else's gameplay. She can talk all she wants but everyone is at liberty to just ignore her. You think that ele standing in the maelstrom is going to listen to a necro telling them to move out of it? Heck no, because the necro can't actually do anything about it. But the monk *can* - by just letting the ele die. Unless you leave the group, you have to listen to your monks, because otherwise they stop healing and you spend your time kissing dirt.

The reason some of you are pissed off isn't because monks are telling you what to do - it's that they can tell you what to do and make it stick.

Trvth Jvstice · Sep 29, 2006, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

Doesn't wash. Any 60 AL character can get out of their agro if they try, kite to the team and break it. The alternative is to run the other way, back the way you came, and let their Ai continue them onward. If you're not getting heals, you know something is wrong. We've all expierenced KD in THK here Trvth Jvstice; your plight falls on deaf ears.

You hate monking other missions/areas, huh? I wonder why...

Not probably. I have no doubt that you've gimped yourself as a flexible monk by only monking one mission 90% of the time across 2 seperate chapters. That you come here and bash other players--speaking AS a monk--while they pound their way through one mission after another shows just how much more you have to learn. Sadly, I have no more time to devote to your instruction. GG in GW and life.

Wrong still on all counts.

1. I wasn't able to ecape the giants, like I said, I was trying. Why are you so fixated on this point? Either you believe me or you don't. I don't care.

2. I said I hated my one time experience monking in the underworld. I often help guildies by monking some of prophecies missions. I stated that I mostly monk THK, not only monk THK.

EDIT: Listen, my only point in all of this was, I believe a healing monk should keep his team alive if he can. Warn the one's that are making mistakes (hell it might be a 10 year old kid you're pug-ing with, give them a break). I don't think you should sacrifice your team or mission/quest to try to save one person. But if you can, keep them alive. What's so bad about that?

Omega X · Sep 29, 2006, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zexion

Yes, we should take care about doing our own job. But what if our team mates does nothing constructive, but instead destructive? For example, a warrior aggroing all the groups in sight, instead of one at a time.

Let's flip it 180.

I, as a monk, run up to you, as a warrior, and use Heal Area to heal you.
Yes, I am doing my job, to heal you. But I am doing it in a way destructive to the function of a party, by healing the monsters next to me as well.
What would you do as a warrior? Shrug it off, and keep attacking? Or say "Look, mister monk guy. Stop healing the monsters for the damage I deal to them, or I will stop dealing damage."

Same situation for us. Our job is to keep your health up. If you do stupid things that works against our job of healing (taking much more damage than neccesary, by things such as using Frenzy while under aggro, or over aggroing), by having the heal we have just healed being taken away again, can you expect us to just shrug it off?

With my example from before:
If we do stupid things that works against your job of dealing damage (running up to the warrior and his aggro to use Heal Area, removing bleeding from another warrior instead of blind from your warrior), by having the damage you have just dealt being taken away again, can I expect you to just shrug it off?

Imagine if you were an employee at a bakery. Every time you would bake something, your boss would just throw it out the wastebin. By doing this, the shop will not earn money, and thus you will not get paid (=by the warrior being retarded, you will not be rewarded by completing the mission/quest). Am I supposed to accept that, or should I strike/quit?

_Zexion

QFT

Some people actually think that monks should shut up, sit back and watch them play crappy builds whilst they get their teammates killed. Meanwhile you are the blame if they die. That's garbage plain and simple.

This actually reminds me of actual real life situations where the woman is told to "Shut up and do the housework".

saphir · Sep 29, 2006, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

Doesn't wash. Any 60 AL character can get out of their agro if they try, kite to the team and break it. The alternative is to run the other way, back the way you came, and let their Ai continue them onward. If you're not getting heals, you know something is wrong. We've all expierenced KD in THK here Trvth Jvstice; your plight falls on deaf ears.

I don't know about THK, but if you've ever had 2 or 3 FOW abyssmals w/ their KD on you, it's pretty hard to get away. The knockdown plus a bit of lagging and the lovely invisible collision geometry kill squishes pretty quickly.

Quote:

And, to be completely honest 90% of the time the only mission I monk in is THK. I Monked my way through Prophecies and immediately went back to my fav mission -THK. And there my monk remains. I tried monking UW once, with an ally group and hated it.

No offense, having just done THK last night for the bonus w/ a random pug assembled from us nightowls in the district, both I and the other monk actually found the healing there horribly boring. Probably due our MM necro who pretty much is like having a prot monk on the team as well. But we pretty much just steam rolled thru the bonus, although I've also had groups in the past that simply don't output enough damage and we get overwhelmed. Now there's some good fighting hehe.

But everything I say comes from my own slant of monking for UW 90% of the time. I pretty much just hung out w/ pugs in uw while waiting for factions, finished factions, did some pvp, got bored and am now waiting for NF by monking uw/fow again. So yeah, grain of salt and all that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sinican

Rangers do well at agroing they have the best defensive stances in the game yet i see alot of you noob monks bitching about them... it is the ranger that is the best at pulling agro it is the tanks that are best at taking the damage from that agro... neither of them do any damn good when you screwy monks try your little healing games on them....

So by your logic, then since nukers have the best aoe damage for that aggro that no one should bitch if they are using firestorm or any other aggro dispersing skill. Or eles that cast maelstrom on aggro'd warrior enemies can do whatever the hell they want, because damn it, that's their job and they can play however they want.

Seriously although there are stereotyped roles for every class, it's the flexible teams that succeed where others may fail. Sure in some areas rangers are useful for pulling out smaller patrols to take out, but then really anyone w/ a long bow and an evasive skill could do that. But then there are some areas where such ranger pulling is ill-advised, such as hard hitting Bladeds in UW, or groups of mesmers/monks in FOW which when pulled in such a fashion are no longer tightly packed, making destroying groups w/ 2-3 shadow monks much tougher via aoe spells.

--
Unfortunately everyone seems to be focusing on the omg, those monks AREN'T healing when they could have aspect of this.

But the CONVERSE is also true! It's exactly the same tactic and reasoning behind it, but to hopefully elicit a different effect from a player.

Say for some reason your warrior has lost aggro, and 60% of the mob have decided to focus on your resident necro. He's soft and somewhat squishy and that -15% dp sure makes him look tasty! Would you want him to die just because the AI is attacking him? perhaps not heal him because the "fool" isn't running?

As a monk I would say no (I would not let him die - added for the benefit of Master Fuhon as I wonder if he read beyond this sentence). This is the guy you want to keep healed, in fact you want his hp at a psychological level so that he won't break and run. Generally w/ most players if you keep their hp around 80% - 90% they will hold their position. Because you know what will happen if he starts running or moving right? That 60% of the mob that's aggro'd him will break and start whacking the rest of the squishies standing around him trying to cast their nukes or whatever. Ever seen an ele finish their meteor shower right as someone moves and all the monsters run off and retarget? And SS is oh so effective on running mobs. What does more damage? Firing barrage at an enemy aggro'd on one target, or at a few enemies all chasing different squishies?

I'd say for every player I might heal just a little less there's an equal player who I will heal just a little more. Maybe they're a horrible player, maybe they do next to no damage, or maybe I can't stand the player, but hey, if they are holding aggro and making it easier for my team to make short work of the enemy, that player is gonna get those extra heals to keep him fixed in place.

And what caster here doesn't start running when their health reached 15% or less? I know I do. It's a reflex action. But when I see that meteor shower start falling on the position I just left, I'll run right back into the nuke, hopefully pulling any mobs on my tail w/ me.

Paperfly · Sep 29, 2006, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Quote:

The interesting fact here is that all good players (and even most bad ones) will tell their team what to do, and will instruct or yell at people who deviate from what they consider to be acceptable behavior. This is independant of what class they play.

I found playing my Assassin frustrating in places - I was still generally the most knowledgeable and competent player on the team, but I'd cop a lot of flack for making tactical suggestions since it was generally accepted that 'sins have no moral authority.

@ Sinican: Are you familiar with the phenomenom of aggro "leapfrogging"? This usually happens when the ranger pulls. What tends to happen is that mobs who are aggro'd to the ranger will then shift to lower armour targets in the backline as soon as said ranger retreats to maximum bow range. That is why it's preferrable to have a warrior pulling with a longbow whenever possible...

Guardian of the Light · Sep 29, 2006, 03:33 AM // 03:33

I play monking along with other professiosn and in HIGH-end PvP/PvE and normal PvE/RA there seems to be a difference.

In HoH and High-End PvE (like the Deep) monk are demanded to do their job the best of else the team will lose. In HoH if an infuser isn't infusing in time he is kicked very often.

In PvE/RA everyone will take a monk and be accepting of it and rarely comment on a bad job unless they are doing a really bad job ("it's not my fault I got distracted by taht R3 Bambi emote").

Most often when I monk in RA I get more good feedback then idiots running around saying HEAL ME HEAL ME! However in HA when I tried an infuser for the first time to try it out I got flamed a little when we faced B-spike and lost.

Advice: Ignore the idiots and concentrate on the postive stuff.

BTW notice this whole WAMMO vs Monk thing is being talked a lot.

beta man · Sep 29, 2006, 03:37 AM // 03:37

lol. when i monk, even at the slightest of abuse, i just leave. i play the game to enjoy it, not to be abused.
i won't even bother to talk or anything, just map out.

beta man · Sep 29, 2006, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

I play monking along with other professiosn and in HIGH-end PvP/PvE and normal PvE/RA there seems to be a difference.

In HoH and High-End PvE (like the Deep) monk are demanded to do their job the best of else the team will lose. In HoH if an infuser isn't infusing in time he is kicked very often.

Why not the dmg dealer that wasn't doing good got kicked? because their mistake cannot be seen easily i guess. And one reason is that someone have to be blame for something and monk is the most obvious target. Or, maybe u are playing with those noobs that will behave like those "Heal me wtf monk" kind of players. It easy to notice when you did not infuse in time, its hard to see that a warrior fail to distracting blow a metoer shower. Pvp is always best played with friends or guildmates

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

In PvE/RA everyone will take a monk and be accepting of it and rarely comment on a bad job unless they are doing a really bad job ("it's not my fault I got distracted by taht R3 Bambi emote").

Most often when I monk in RA I get more good feedback then idiots running around saying HEAL ME HEAL ME! However in HA when I tried an infuser for the first time to try it out I got flamed a little when we faced B-spike and lost.

Advice: Ignore the idiots and concentrate on the postive stuff.

Well maybe because in RA, it is good to have a monk anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

BTW notice this whole WAMMO vs Monk thing is being talked a lot.

true, now with the new -10ar weapon mod, i guess i will stay away from monking as much as i can, lol

TadaceAce · Sep 29, 2006, 03:54 AM // 03:54

Heres an idea, quit acting like your some big shit because your a monk and just do your job. If someone is annoying you turn off team chat and just do your job. Seriously any retard and their grandma can play a monk as well as *most* of the people that post in this kind of thread. Its not like your that monk on iQ or WM that make people think twice before bringing a spike group against you. Quit being such headcases and just do your job... or as my coach always says, control what you can control.

Kali Magdalene · Sep 29, 2006, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice

EDIT: Listen, my only point in all of this was, I believe a healing monk should keep his team alive if he can. Warn the one's that are making mistakes (hell it might be a 10 year old kid you're pug-ing with, give them a break). I don't think you should sacrifice your team or mission/quest to try to save one person. But if you can, keep them alive. What's so bad about that?

Sometimes you can't keep them alive, and you know you won't be able to keep them alive, or you know that keeping them alive will cause much more pain for the entire party. There is no hard and fast rule here where you can just say "You must act to keep everyone alive no matter what" and expect anyone with monking experience to take it seriously. You can say "You should keep everyone healthy to the best of your ability" and I'm sure you'd get more agreement.

When I've monked, I've never tried to take control of the party, to give people orders, to withhold healing as a means of coercion. I have, however, been yelled at because a warrior got aggro and then ran through the backlines (thus chaining aggro to the casters). I've been yelled at in Boreas Seabed when the party was focused on the kraken and ignored its spawn while it tore up both myself and the other monk. So the warrior dies and yells profanities at us for not healing him when we were kiting a monster we could not kill around and asking someone to take it off our hands so we could do our jobs.

I've seen a few monks get abusive and nasty in parties, but seeing how much abuse is directed at monks in parties, I can't say I'm surprised. The most abusive monk I ever teamed with was in FoW, and the party was incapable of following simple directions - as on both tries going in, they chained aggro back to the ghost in the entrance area and thus got us wiped. While the monk said some incredibly nasty things, I can't really say I blame him.

The second most abusive monk was just plain stupid. He would run in circles while demanding blood ritual, stand inside chaos storm and cast, then complain that we were running out of energy, and then finally rage quit after yelling at us about a wipe, even though she caused the actual wipe by aggroing three groups at once. This all happened in Thirsty River.

To be honest, I find the attitudes expressed about monks in this thread to be more appalling than any attitudes expressed by monks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TadaceAce

Heres an idea, quit acting like your some big shit because your a monk and just do your job. If someone is annoying you turn off team chat and just do your job. Seriously any retard and their grandma can play a monk as well as *most* of the people that post in this kind of thread. Its not like your that monk on iQ or WM that make people think twice before bringing a spike group against you. Quit being such headcases and just do your job... or as my coach always says, control what you can control.

Back at you, mang. Shut up about the monks and do your job. If you don't like what monks might be saying, turn off team chat.

Rera · Sep 29, 2006, 04:28 AM // 04:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

However in HA when I tried an infuser for the first time to try it out I got flamed a little when we faced B-spike and lost.

If you're 'trying out' infuser you should do it with a guild team, and make sure everyone knows you're not experienced. For serious HA teams, the infuser *must* be good, period.

Infuser is an extreme example, because good infusing is *hard*, and incompetence is extremely visible. The fact that it's easily one of the most critical positions on the team doesn't help either. If you were playing any other kind of monk the team probably wouldn't be quite as harsh.

Sekkira · Sep 29, 2006, 05:23 AM // 05:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by TadaceAce

Quit being such headcases and just do your job... or as my coach always says, control what you can control.

That's exactly the point of this thread. The Monk players aren't bitching, they're talking about control.

As I said before, arrogance is in my nature, I just happen to play a monk every now and then, coming across as one of those arrogant monks. In all seriousness though, my attitude is no different than when I'm playing my Ranger, Necromancer, Warrior, Assassin or Mesmer.

As an Assassin, I prefer to stay right in the backline, dishing out as much damage and combos as possible, hoping I'm not noticed enough to start taking damage, if I am, I use return to get back out.

Ranger, I vary between Thumper and some other build, which I'll either be in the midline or charging up just in front/behind the Warriors depending on what the mob consists of.

Warrior, I'll take frenzy and a cancel stance, I'll frenzy when holding aggro DEPENDING on how much damage I'm actually taking, how long I'll keep the aggro and how competent I've seen the monk behind me perform.

As a caster, I'll stick to the mid line and do whatever I'm doing at the time, keeping an eye on the battlefield and the party bar to asses a possible pre-kite (Playing a Mesmer to Legendary Survivor teaches you that important tactic).

The thing is, this is not about anyone forcing anyone to play a certain way or a particular build (as you've seen in my previous post, I'm dead set against someone playing a build that revolves around assisting someone maintain their own build). There is no RIGHT way to play this game (PvE), but there is definately a wrong way.

A caster standing in a clump of Maelstroms, throwing his energy away, wondering why they're dying is a bad way to play. A Warrior taking a massive beating then throwing up Frenzy is a bad way to play. a Ranger having fun with their longbow and seeing how much they can aggro onto the party is a bad way to play.

There is a distinct differrence between telling someone to get out of a Maelstrom, cancel that frenzy, stop aggroing under the threat of dying and telling someone what attributes and skills to run. When I party with someone, I don't give a shit what they run (unless of course I ask for a specific type of build, I expect them to run it when they get on the team). It can be some really wacked out build that is just strange. As long as it has some sort of method to its madness, some sort of logical sense to why they're using it and of course its played sensibly, I don't care.

sinican · Sep 29, 2006, 05:35 AM // 05:35

you know the counter to all this....

if you really trully were a good monk you could compensate for bad players...

hell if the henchmen can do it why the heck cant any of you....

you all complain about this and that about how this player is playing wrong... yet henchis don't have a problem keeping people alive...

ive grown real fond of the henchi monks vs real monks... some of you have gone way overboard with this we need you crap... and not doing what even the AI can do and really what most players want outa a real monk vs an npc monk is to stay alive yourself and res dead members at more tacticle times...

its sad when half of you cant live up to even a henchi monk and all you want to do is blame the other players...

I already know not to take any player monks cept in missions that require the healing of non grouped players such as hatchery and other escort missions... otherwise once again you moaning groaning high and mighty monkeys are second to Tai and her crew...

keep on blaming everyone else because you cant live up to your own roles... even a shitty group can prosper with a decent healer...

I sure as hell dont need to put up with any of this bull shit from you monks in my groups... pull your stupid little games on me and see who gets the boot...

as far as elite missions go those arent what we are talking about in the first place if you pug elite missions you already know to expect failure 99% of the time and ur gambling because you have no other alternative... hell ill only goin on elites with people i know in the first place non of which come close to the arrogance most of you portray...

byteme! · Sep 29, 2006, 05:40 AM // 05:40

"I refuse to heal anyone who runs off on their own"
"I refuse to heal anyone attempts to tank unless they are w/*"

First things I would tell my teammates

Lews · Sep 29, 2006, 05:45 AM // 05:45

I don't join PuG's to monk except in PvE. If people yell at me I calmly explain what they did wrong ( I don't make mistakes, and if I do I say sorry ) and if they keep yelling I leave.

In PvP I monk with my guild. once they yelled at me, I made them watch the observer mode 3 times until they all were convinced that I did the right thing, and now they don't argue when I say I did something.

Problem solved!

sinican · Sep 29, 2006, 05:45 AM // 05:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by byteme!

"I refuse to heal anyone who runs off on their own"
"I refuse to heal anyone attempts to tank unless they are w/*"

First things I would tell my teammates

and you are a crappy monk... Tai plays better than you...

there is no room for people who don't play well with others in this game... its sick that people would invite you to a party because your a monk and think you would act like a healer but instead to get a big smack in the face from you dictating what happens to the group

they may as well eliminate the monk class completely so players like myself dont waste the spot on our groups where a henchi would fit much better

Master Fuhon · Sep 29, 2006, 05:54 AM // 05:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by saphir

Say for some reason your warrior has lost aggro, and 60% of the mob have decided to focus on your resident necro. He's soft and somewhat squishy and that -15% dp sure makes him look tasty! Would you want him to die just because the AI is attacking him? perhaps not heal him because the "fool" isn't running?

As a monk I would say no. This is the guy you want to keep healed, in fact you want his hp at a psychological level so that he won't break and run. Generally w/ most players if you keep their hp around 80% - 90% they will hold their position. Because you know what will happen if he starts running or moving right? That 60% of the mob that's aggro'd him will break and start whacking the rest of the squishies standing around him trying to cast their nukes or whatever. Ever seen an ele finish their meteor shower right as someone moves and all the monsters run off and retarget? And SS is oh so effective on running mobs. What does more damage? Firing barrage at an enemy aggro'd on one target, or at a few enemies all chasing different squishies?

I'm seeing quite a problem with the side badmouthing monks from people trying to create hypothetical situations and stereotype the general population of monks. I'd heal the necro, and do you know why? Even if it was his fault for the aggro, its already too late and the survival of the players doing their jobs right hinges on this necro living (whos probably at melee range spamming dark aura sac skills to take aggro away). The necro has started a chain, if he dies, then the next caster will be taking hits, and pretty soon the melee will be on the monk. If you let the necro get properly two-shotted to death due to his stupidity (as long as he is still in the right place), then theres a chance that aggro refocuses on the warrior. Instead you heal, you blow through protective spirit and several secondary heals, and theres no guarantee that he runs despite the "facts" you claim about running at <80%.

I've seen rangers auto attack with a bow for a whole battle while taking hits at melee range (activating no stances or skills at all during the time frame). And yes, I had previously blown about 30 energy on him from protective spirit, and several consecutive dwaynas kisses and word of healings. Then came an Area of Effect spell, to which he also stood in for the full duration. Guess what? Let him drop, aggro refocused on someone who could tank it, and the group didn't wipe from me running out of energy. (1/6 person group with no support healing)

Don't make up hypotheticals about a group of people to justify your beliefs of why you don't like them. You have already dehumanized the people behind the character by thinking of them as healbots whose job is to make sure everyone survives. If you think some of us are willing to put up with the same abuse that you would give to your car, then I hope you get introduced to the "break from programming" that real people are capable of.

saphir · Sep 29, 2006, 06:02 AM // 06:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Fuhon

I'd heal the necro, and do you know why? ...

Don't make up hypotheticals about a group of people to justify your beliefs of why you don't like them. You have already dehumanized the people behind the character by thinking of them as healbots whose job is to make sure everyone survives. If you think some of us are willing to put up with the same abuse that you would give to your car, then I hope you get introduced to the "break from programming" that real people are capable of.

holy shiit... did you even read what i wrote? maybe read it again.. one part may be unclear i admit (maybe that's ALL you read.. let me go fix that now)... but umm... i pretty much said what you said with the same reasons given...

do even you know what "converse/conversely" means?

and no, i didn't quite mean that players start running when they're at < 80%, of course not.. but if you want to have a high chance that the necro would stay in place, >80% usually does it. casters have a much higher chance of running when they hit 40% or less

... and these aren't hypotheticals but situations I experience all the time when I monk. So common in fact that the examples I have used have happened exactly the same dozens of times with dozens of different pugs.

sheesh.. i tried to give an example of when I would put in extra effort healing and keeping someone alive, regardless of how they play.. and someone can read the complete opposite.. you just can't win lol